Issues with sleeping on my back.

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astrovineyard
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Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby astrovineyard » 29 Apr 2015 20:12

It seems like sleeping on your back is one way to help trigger an LD (even though it can also trigger SP). Some people may want to avoid this because it makes them snore more or they might have sleep apnea. What would be suggested in those circumstances?

I used to sleep well on my back for MANY years, although in that time I almost never had any LD or even SP. From my early childhood I used to get some SP regardless of my sleeping position, but I discovered that when it happened on my back it was worse, like I was more vulnerable and helpless, more terrified and felt sucked in by evil forces and took longer to struggle to move and wake up, so for THAT reason I tried to make sure I did not sleep on my back.

But once the SP phase was over, I once again learned to sleep on my back as a teen, but for somewhat different reasons. I was able to sleep this way for many years, including when I got married and I'd sleep on my back with my wife embracing me. It was so nice!

Occasionally I'd wake up with a little jolt upon falling asleep this way (like a muscle jerk), or wake myself up with my first snore snort, and neither of these seemed to happen if I slept on my side.

But since I got insomnia, I found it impossible to fall asleep on my back. Even now that I'm over a week since my last sleepless night, I still have that edgy worry about falling asleep and notice it still takes longer than before, but NOT on my back. It seems that only after I roll onto my side or stomach and hug my pillow do I eventually drift off. And even then I still wake up more times during the night than usual.

A couple times - especially toward morning - I have found that I "accidentally" fell back to sleep on my back without realizing it, but if I go to bed and lay specifically on my back with the intentions of falling asleep that way, I fear I may jinx myself and lie awake too long and return to insomnia.

So, assuming I am safely beyond insomnia to experiment with LD again, how do I get over the hurdle of sleeping on my back again, which seems to be an essential ingredient? Or is sleeping position irrelevant?

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PKJacker
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby PKJacker » 29 Apr 2015 20:53

Sleeping position is pretty much irrelevant for lucid dreaming. The only reason why some prefer it is most people don't regularly sleep on their back so it puts them in the mindframe for having an ld, and it keeps them awake longer since they're less comfortable.

You can have an ld in pretty much any position

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taniaaust1
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby taniaaust1 » 30 Apr 2015 08:42

astrovineyard wrote: But since I got insomnia, I found it impossible to fall asleep on my back. Even now that I'm over a week since my last sleepless night, I still have that edgy worry about falling asleep and notice it still takes longer than before, but NOT on my back.


So, assuming I am safely beyond insomnia to experiment with LD again, how do I get over the hurdle of sleeping on my back again, which seems to be an essential ingredient? Or is sleeping position irrelevant?



I don't understand at all how you are coming to the conclusion that you wont go straight back into the insomnia issues you were blaming WILD for before (along with blaming the people here who didn't warn you you could get insomnia from WILD) if you start up doing this all again now esp since you say its only been a week since you have had your last sleepless night. It's a complete lack of common sense (probably why you got the issues you had in the first place, I suspect you didn't stop what you were doing when you first started getting issues and continued on with it hence why then ended up with insomnia you had to get medically treated).

You shouldn't be doing WILD AT ALL at your regular bedtime or during the night seeing it gave you sleep issues to the point you had to go to the doctor and get sleeping drugs due to doing this before. You only have yourself to blame when you run into trouble again.

(you cant say now you haven't been warned). WILD is generally completely safe for people and will not cause health issues if they use common sense. I think your post is a good example of someone not using common sense. (pity there is not a head shake smilie, Im just stunned you are going to go back to doing something you complained so much about and which you ended up having to get prescription drugs for).

(You said you cant sleep during the day so I'd assume you aren't going to be trying to do this outside your normal sleep hours as that would be quite pointless if you cant sleep during the day at all to nap).

If you want to LD you should be focusing on DILD in your case..
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby astrovineyard » 30 Apr 2015 21:17

Shake your head all you want, but I never said I was going to try a WILD. I simply would to be able to return to the ability to sleep on my back. I just want to remove the "expectation" that I might have a lucid dream as a result so that such a position doesn't make it hard for me to fall asleep.

Of course, at some point I would like to attempt LD again. Call that foolish, or maybe I'm trying to be optimistic. Or is it your prognosis that ANY future attempt to LD will inevitably lead me headlong into insomnia again, and that I forever have no hope of having an LD?

Well, I hope not. Or come up with some techniques that don't result in insomnia. It is all very well to call me foolish and say "you have been warned" NOW, but of course where was this warning when I first started this a couple months ago and ordered Galantamine?

I hope you aren't that conclusive with others who attempt but fail at LD. Would you advise someone who tried to LD but could not to "just give up"? Or how about someone who tried but had a terrifying SP episode instead? Would you say "try to LD again at your own peril, and don't come crying to me if you end up scared beyond your wits to within inches of apparent death"?

astrovineyard
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby astrovineyard » 30 Apr 2015 21:18

Come to think of it, YOU have admitted that you get insomnia, so why are YOU still trying to have LD? Or is your insomnia caused by completely different things?

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taniaaust1
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby taniaaust1 » 02 May 2015 11:51

astrovineyard wrote:Of course, at some point I would like to attempt LD again. Call that foolish, or maybe I'm trying to be optimistic. Or is it your prognosis that ANY future attempt to LD will inevitably lead me headlong into insomnia again, and that I forever have no hope of having an LD?


Lots of people at this website do not do WILD techniques and still have LD experiences (I don't know the percentage of the people who do WILD compared to the others but it may well be as high as 50/50). Not able to do WILD doesn't at all mean that a person including yourself cant be using other techniques for LD. I've told you this multiple times.

Or come up with some techniques that don't result in insomnia.


Ive done just that before and as far as I know you aren't practicing them, you've shown a near obsession with WILD at this website.

It is all very well to call me foolish and say "you have been warned" NOW, but of course where was this warning when I first started this a couple months ago and ordered Galantamine?


You should remember quite well that I did warn you about supplements as I didn't think they were going to help your case with the issues you were having and you spat the dummy over it and accused me of not wanting you to LD or something along those lines. So you went ahead and took and apparently it caused you more issues.

Would you advise someone who tried to LD but could not to "just give up"?


I repeatively suggested you try other techniques, non WILD ones but then you said that at one point that just thinking about LD was giving you insomnia.

Or how about someone who tried but had a terrifying SP episode instead? Would you say "try to LD again at your own peril, and don't come crying to me if you end up scared beyond your wits to within inches of apparent death"?


"within inches of apparent death" :lol: ... that's over kill there, and an exaggeration.

But yeah if someone was having multiple terrifying SP episodes they weren't handling well, I would tell them to leave LD for a while and work on their fears over the whole LD stuff for a while instead as it would be foolhearty to keep doing something a person doesn't seem to be able to change and is distressing them. Sometimes a break is needed with then at a later date when the person is more ready, a fresh start with it.

Come to think of it, YOU have admitted that you get insomnia, so why are YOU still trying to have LD? Or is your insomnia caused by completely different things?


What Im doing doesn't make my insomnia worst, I don't do WBTB or LD things which would make my insomnia worst. WBTB would be stupid for me to do cause I have severe insomnia eg past few days I haven't got to sleep till after 4.30am..sometimes even at 6.30am. The only middle of night awakenings I have are ones I naturally wake up with due to having insomnia, I do not keep myself up during them. I used to have myself programmed to wake up right after every dream but that was before I had insomnia and Im not currently programmed in that manner nor would I do that to myself due to my sleep disorders).

I have a severe medical condition which causes my insomnia, I have severe ME/CFS, everyone with this basically has insomnia as one of the many symptoms. Insomnia is part of the diagnostic criteria.

Ive got a heap of sleep disorders due to having ME/CFS. With this I get big issues with circadian rhythm (my body has issues with its hormones including with low melatonin, my body also if it produces adrenaline, cant break it down properly) . I get with the ME/CFS
-Non-24-hour sleep–wake disorder
- Delayed sleep phase disorder (DSPD)
- * restless leg syndrome
- issues with nightmares (I may have some PTSD due to the severity of the physical illness Ive been through and still get, my support worker almost had to call an ambulance yesterday again. Im in hospital a lot for drips as my blood volume get too low, my body doesn't properly regulate things ).

I also have neurological issues due to the ME/CFS and my brain doesn't go into the right brain states for things.. eg my brain waves goes way too fast with its brain waves when I've got my eyes closed or are relaxing. I've got no normal of some of the brain waves on my EEGs. This too would be affecting me when asleep.

I just do WILD in ways in which wont affect my insomnia eg before my bedtime or during middle of the day.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby astrovineyard » 04 May 2015 13:29

I don't have time to reply in full, but I'll address what you say about my WILD obsession. It is more a matter of being limited by what you know. Everything about this and other sites is do-it-yourself; you read something, then try it, but have no real teacher helping you along, talking you through the process.

That said, I've mentioned (or tried) the advice of THINKING about having LD (where that borders on obsession, I don't know, but if overkill doesn't do it, then what will?), holding my nose and trying to breathe during the day, keeping a dream journal (for the "wrong reasons," according to you), WBTB, and, yes, Galantamine.

Which, though you did warn me about it WORKING, said nothing specifically about any side effects I would get, like insomnia. So you can't claim credit for knowing anything out it other than some sort of purity or high moral ground of mastering LD without supplements and frowning upon anyone who needs to resort to them.

(In defense of Galantamine, the one night I did go in and out of sleep I DID have some unusual and vivid dreams, including some dreams-in-dreams that I failed to become lucid in, and the one where I saw my distorted face in a mirror and heard a gurgling sound followed by a mere few seconds of paralysis/struggle to "will" myself awake from being stuck. With practice I could learn to recognize and work with SP to lead to LD, but it had been decades since I experienced anything like that, so it was more of a reflex reaction.)

> "within inches of apparent death" :lol: ... that's over kill there, and an exaggeration.

Not so! Actually, I believe a popular euphemism is "scared me to death!" which obviously isn't true (as evidenced by being still alive), so I modify that phrase with "within seconds" (i.e. not YET death) and "apparent" (meaning it only SEEMS like death but is not). And you laugh at me and call my tempered use of a popular saying as overkill?

That tells me that you aren't very familiar with SP (especially when you say it doesn't bother you). I suspected as much, as SP has been described as one of the most (if not THE most) terrifying experiences humans have had, or the people who have had them. They have been described as experiences where the dreamer swears death is imminent, amid the paralysis and sheer terror of the state, extreme panic, epic attempts to struggle but utterly helpless, loud buzzing, electric vibrations, sensed evil presence and forces exerting themselves on the body, crushing or pulling you down, and unable to call for help or even breathe. I'm sorry - where exactly did I exaggerate believing that death was both apparent and near during this experience? Given that these experiences happen, and seem real to the dreamer, how is it any more or less to call the feared conclusion an exaggeration that makes you LOL, compared to you dreaming there is an intruder, and thinking that that is real? Hmm: a fallible, foolable person breaking into my home, where I know the territory better, or an invisible evil force weighing me down and sucking all the breath out of me, paralyzing me as I observe my body inching inevitably towards a death which IF ONLY I CAN MOVE OR SCREAM OR BREATHE OR WAKE UP can I escape such doom......

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taniaaust1
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby taniaaust1 » 04 May 2015 17:18

astrovineyard wrote: Not so! Actually, I believe a popular euphemism is "scared me to death!" which obviously isn't true (as evidenced by being still alive), so I modify that phrase with "within seconds" (i.e. not YET death) and "apparent" (meaning it only SEEMS like death but is not). And you laugh at me and call my tempered use of a popular saying as overkill?

That tells me that you aren't very familiar with SP (especially when you say it doesn't bother you).


Im not sure how you can tell someone who's experienced SP on quite a few occasions (I get it rarely but as I've been dong LD for a very long time those few occasions would of added up) that they aren't very familiar with SP. Anyone who's ever experienced SP in my eyes can be said to be familiar with the state.

Just cause you have issues with it, doesn't mean everyone else has too and it certainly doesn't mean that those who aren't scared of it "aren't very familiar with SP"

I suspected as much, as SP has been described as one of the most (if not THE most) terrifying experiences humans have had, or the people who have had them. They have been described as experiences where the dreamer swears death is imminent, amid the paralysis and sheer terror of the state, extreme panic, epic attempts to struggle but utterly helpless, loud buzzing, electric vibrations, sensed evil presence and forces exerting themselves on the body, crushing or pulling you down, and unable to call for help or even breathe. I'm sorry - where exactly did I exaggerate believing that death was both apparent and near during this experience?


You are not near death during a SP! go on and run the whole terrifying SP pattern you are in over and over to yourself and wonder why on earth you cant LD (and no doubt some of the younger newbies will have you to thank for when they read your posts and end up having a terrifying SP due to them.. In dreaming states or half dream states..whatever we think is more likely to happen). You are putting the word death mixed with LD into peoples subconsciousness which is the last thing anyone trying to LD needs.

By your post you are expecting to have the most horrific experience known to man if you get into a SP state (and you wonder why you were getting insomnia over the LD stuff!.. anxiety will do that).
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby astrovineyard » 04 May 2015 19:49

taniaaust1 wrote:
astrovineyard wrote: Not so! Actually, I believe a popular euphemism is "scared me to death!" which obviously isn't true (as evidenced by being still alive), so I modify that phrase with "within seconds" (i.e. not YET death) and "apparent" (meaning it only SEEMS like death but is not). And you laugh at me and call my tempered use of a popular saying as overkill?

That tells me that you aren't very familiar with SP (especially when you say it doesn't bother you).


Im not sure how you can tell someone who's experienced SP on quite a few occasions (I get it rarely but as I've been dong LD for a very long time those few occasions would of added up) that they aren't very familiar with SP. Anyone who's ever experienced SP in my eyes can be said to be familiar with the state.

Just cause you have issues with it, doesn't mean everyone else has too and it certainly doesn't mean that those who aren't scared of it "aren't very familiar with SP"

I suspected as much, as SP has been described as one of the most (if not THE most) terrifying experiences humans have had, or the people who have had them. They have been described as experiences where the dreamer swears death is imminent, amid the paralysis and sheer terror of the state, extreme panic, epic attempts to struggle but utterly helpless, loud buzzing, electric vibrations, sensed evil presence and forces exerting themselves on the body, crushing or pulling you down, and unable to call for help or even breathe. I'm sorry - where exactly did I exaggerate believing that death was both apparent and near during this experience?


You are not near death during a SP! go on and run the whole terrifying SP pattern you are in over and over to yourself and wonder why on earth you cant LD (and no doubt some of the younger newbies will have you to thank for when they read your posts and end up having a terrifying SP due to them.. In dreaming states or half dream states..whatever we think is more likely to happen). You are putting the word death mixed with LD into peoples subconsciousness which is the last thing anyone trying to LD needs.

By your post you are expecting to have the most horrific experience known to man if you get into a SP state (and you wonder why you were getting insomnia over the LD stuff!.. anxiety will do that).


I am not suggesting that you aren't familiar with SP based on your experiences, just that based on your COMMENTS and CRITICISMS of me that it seems that you aren't.

Or if not, that you undervalue/empathize those experiences that differ from yours, such that you would publicly laugh at their personal descriptions of them, and the level of fear they felt and truly believed in that moment they were dying (which you say is exaggerating).

I don't have issues with SP. I conquered it, remember, at the tender age of 10 or 11. The few incidents since then have been very mild and brief by comparison, or not scary at all, a couple even pleasant or euphoric (including a couple erotic dreams with features seemingly related to hypnapompic hallucinations and sensations).

My issues are being unable to have an LD either with or without using the SP as a launching point (there is a VERY descriptive series of videos which demonstrate this very technique, waiting for whooshing sounds or feeling like a heavy blanket is being placed on you or you are being shrink wrapped and then somehow rolling out of your body...). To say that SP is unrelated to LD, even though it can be used (on purpose or accident) to fall into LD, is like saying cigarettes don't cause cancer because there a hundred other ways to get cancer.

My issue is confounded because I believed that, having experienced SP, that I should at least have some advantage having established the precedent that I CAN get SP. I was working with a known experience, rather than the myriad unknown ones on offer for LD induction. Which - other than Galantamine - have failed to produce a single moment of SP or LD, and all have led invariably to insomnia, which is my final issue. So - as scary as SP CAN be, I know it is always not so, and if it is I am prepared to deal with it, and in the larger picture I am more worried about weeks of insomnia than a few minutes of really scary dreams.

Anyway, all our conversation demonstrates is that SP is very subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Is it the scariest thing ever experienced, or something to be shrugged off? Are their sounds or no sounds (and if so, what kind?)? body vibrations or no? total or partial paralysis? can you breathe easily, with difficulty, or are suffocating? Can you speak or scream? Are you floating up out of bed or being crushed or pulled into it? Is there a presence or attacker, and what form does it take? Does it last seconds or minutes? Upon falling asleep or waking up? Happen constantly or rarely? If on back or stomach or in any position? Do you attribute explanation to physical or supernatural/religious cause?

So I never said I was near death. It SEEMED like was WITHIN SECONDS of death. How can you make light of that or doubt it? And it was not my experience alone. I made the point that someone could say "you scared me to death!" - and obvious exaggeration - but am dismissive of my description of an experience known to be the scariest in humans, and I modified the hyperbole with "apparent" and "within seconds." But I expect the next time you say "boo!" to a friend that you won't criticize him or her for not saying "Wow! For a moment there I was so scared that it SEEMED that I MOMENTS of possibly dying from shock!"

I also don't buy your reason of why I should keep hush about the possible scariness of SP, and whether they are linked or not physiologically, that one may experience SP while trying to LD. That seems like the same dishonesty (lying by omission) that seduced me into trying Galantamine without worrying about insomnia as a side effect. So you seem to operate under "ignorance is bliss" or "what you don't know can't hurt you" but it seems just as irresponsible to get people to try to LD without mentioning the possibility of SP and that it CAN be terrifying, just like it is not responsible to suggest an herbal supplement or even meditation technique without warning about the possible side effect of insomnia.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Issues with sleeping on my back.

Postby taniaaust1 » 05 May 2015 11:49

astrovineyard wrote: I don't have issues with SP. I conquered it, remember, at the tender age of 10 or 11. The few incidents since then have been very mild and brief by comparison, or not scary at all, a couple even pleasant or euphoric (including a couple erotic dreams with features seemingly related to hypnapompic hallucinations and sensations).


Maybe sharing that more at this site would be helpful to people along with what you usually say about SP..so you give them a more balanced view of it. That's the first time I've heard you say this, though I must of read at least 8 other posts from you which said how terrifying SP is.

My issue is confounded because I believed that, having experienced SP, that I should at least have some advantage having established the precedent that I CAN get SP. I was working with a known experience, rather than the myriad unknown ones on offer for LD induction.


after getting into a SP state, you still have to be able to move into a LD state.. many get stuck with the SP... and as I've explained before to you it can even really hinder some as they can go into SP and start dreaming they are in bed trying to have a LD and not be aware they are dreaming. So for "some" it can be a hinderance and not an advantage.

There are many types of hypnagogia (SP is just one type) in which wont have a person feeling like they are stuck in bed... ANY hypnagogia state helps one tell when one has entered a half awake/half asleep state, I don't think SP has any big advantage over the others, they all tell one one is heading "towards" the right state for a LD. In fact I personally like HI images better as I can use them better to enter into a LD while some may prefer SP.

Most people I think can get some kind of hypnagogia. So no I didn't think you had any big advantage based on your past SP experiences (as you've now found out for yourself).

Anyway, all our conversation demonstrates is that SP is very subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Is it the scariest thing ever experienced, or something to be shrugged off? Are their sounds or no sounds (and if so, what kind?)? body vibrations or no? total or partial paralysis? can you breathe easily, with difficulty, or are suffocating? Can you speak or scream? Are you floating up out of bed or being crushed or pulled into it? Is there a presence or attacker, and what form does it take? Does it last seconds or minutes? Upon falling asleep or waking up? Happen constantly or rarely? If on back or stomach or in any position? Do you attribute explanation to physical or supernatural/religious cause?


Yes, that is exactly what I always tell people. No-one can tell another what things they will experience
(but the fact stands the experiences could conform to whatever that person believes will happen seeing we taking about half dream states). Im glad you realise this now.

So I never said I was near death. It SEEMED like was WITHIN SECONDS of death.


I apologise, Im sorry. I mistook what you were saying. I did think you were saying you were close to death rather then you just felt like it.

I also don't buy your reason of why I should keep hush about the possible scariness of SP, and whether they are linked or not physiologically, that one may experience SP while trying to LD.


I'd thought you were still terrified of it as I'd never seen you share before that you've been fine and not scared of SP since you were 10-11 years old. If a person was scared of it.. always going on about how terrifying it is and being the scariest thing humans have ever face, it wouldn't help in getting over a fear as it just feeds it. In psychology fears are often got rid of by stopping the rerun of the fearful thoughts one could say and working to change them.

The fear is also transmitable, you may not believe it but very often newbies here have read of scary SPs and say this has scared them and they now fear SP. Go over the forums and see.. those ones now in fear of this are now more likely to have a scary experience for their first ones.

I actually don't have an issue with people sharing that it can be scary and terrifying, I only had an issue with your posts as its been said so often in them and Im sick of people at this forum saying how scared of SP they are when they haven't even experienced it. Sometimes it seems to be on an almost daily bases Im having to tell someone who has heard of it and is scared of it not to worry about it as they may not experience it. Lots of people after they read of this, come to think everyone experiences it.

I don't have issues with SP. I conquered it, remember, at the tender age of 10 or 11
.
Why don't you also when you talk about terrifying SP, say to people that you are now over that fear and have been since a young child??? Why do you just go on about the scary stuff? It's like you want to convince people that it is very awfully scary when you choose not to share a balanced view of it based on your own experiences by avoiding saying you got over that fear.

That seems like the same dishonesty (lying by omission) that seduced me into trying Galantamine without worrying about insomnia as a side effect.


You got seduced into trying Galantamine :shock: :twisted: . People here or at other LD sites must be so nasty for seducing you in that way....

So you seem to operate under "ignorance is bliss"


Im sure people who have heard of LD have also heard of SP so I doubt people are that ignorant. Its the dwelling on the fears and scary stuff I don't think it is useful.

Anyway, of cause you are welcome to share what you like on this website but can I suggest you share a bit more balanced and tell people that you have also had some nice SP experiences and not all scary ones (otherwise it is misleading) and keep in mind what you say could trigger off a SP or fears in the other which may make it harder for the other to have a LD.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself


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