Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

How to control and prolong lucid dreams, increase the intensity, work with dream characters, and communicate with the subconscious.
astrovineyard
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Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby astrovineyard » 30 Apr 2015 23:14

And by "depth" I mean of course how DEEPLY we sleep. Some people normally seem to sleep deeper than others (children, most often, but some adults, too). What is it that causes some to be able to sleep through loud noises, like thunderstorms or alarms, of be impossible to wake up despite shaking and yelling at them? (And what is their inside-the-dream experience of these attempts to wake them up?) Meanwhile, some can be awakened by the slightest touch or sound.

Insomnia aside - the whole issue of being able TO SLEEP vs. NOT SLEEP, and also, I suppose, the TIME it takes to fall asleep and STAY asleep without repeated awakenings, what determines how deeply we sleep?

In my experience, more interesting sleep-related stuff happens when you are a champion sleeper, in addition to being well-rested. While scary things like nightmares and sleep paralysis can happen, there is also just plain vivid or epic dreams, including lucid ones. And, for guys (and some girls, too, or so they claim) can experience erotic or wet dreams that seem to baffle logic: having an orgasm simply by mental stimulation and it DOESN'T wake you up!

I suppose aside from nightmares there are other inconveniences too deep sleep can cause. I can imagine sleeping through a fire alarm (like I did once in college, and people wondered where I was the next day, I could have burned alive if it was real!) but there is stuff like accidents from sleep walking. Then there is bedwetting, in which "sleeping too deeply" is often cited as a reason. I imagine in these cases the person hopes to somehow sleep LESS deeply, or, in common parlance, lightly.

But is it possible to for a deep sleeper to become a light sleeper, or vice versa? Which is more easily accomplished? Obviously I wish to become a deeper sleeper, so what can I do?

There doesn't seem to be any direct wishful or mental means to do so. Once you nod off, the levels of deeper sleep into which you descend (before any REM occurs) is, it seems to me, definitionally beyond the sleeper's conscious control, if for no other reason BECAUSE HE IS UNCONSCIOUS! At least in REM dreams you have something to work with, the dreamscape, into which one can ostensibly become lucid if they know how. But how to do this in a black, timeless, dreamless void? How does one GO DEEPER, or conversely, NOT GO AS DEEP?

I imagine this is harder than even mastering lucid dreaming (if it were easy, then things like bedwetting it seems would be a simple thing to treat by getting the sleeper to not sleep so deeply). But if I can go from a state of insomnia to being able to sleep most of the night, and you guys can train yourself to lucid dream, or fall asleep FASTER, then is it possible to control the quality, length and depth of your sleep without any drugs?

If I can't be a lucid dreamer, then I want to at least be a champion sleeper. Epic dreams are better than no dreams at all, lucid or otherwise.

I would like to know, or at least see what the discussion is like.

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taniaaust1
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby taniaaust1 » 07 May 2015 12:59

I personally think a lot of bedwetting isn't actually due to "deep sleep" but rather due to false awakenings in which the person really believes they are going to the loo. False awakenings often happen in light sleep states too (often people have false awakenings when they are close to actually really waking up), so bed wetting may well turn out to be far less connected to deep sleep then thought currently.

How does one GO DEEPER, or conversely, NOT GO AS DEEP?

I imagine this is harder than even mastering lucid dreaming


That is often part of the mastering the lucid dreaming state. I know at times I can go deeper into a deeper sleep if I feel myself starting to wake up.. I do that to help extend my sleep time hence LD time. I can also often bring myself to a shallower sleep state if I start to get to the point where Im starting to loose awareness of the LD.

It's all done through either putting strong waking focus into it or relaxing more in the LD and not paying it as much waking awareness so you start to drift a little deeper in. I try to keep a certain balance which allows me to play out the LD as long as possible and will save my dream at times several times when I would of otherwise woken up in real life if I didn't take action to go deeper.

Without though having awareness in a dream.. I don't know how a person would do this.. other thing someone can keep themselves in a lighter sleep in various ways eg sleeping while riding out on a train in public will usually have a person in a lighter sleep.

Anyway.. yes it is possible to control length and depth of sleep to a degree.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby astrovineyard » 08 May 2015 05:10

Well by deep sleep I just don't mean REM, which is actually quite close to being awake. I mean the four preceding stages of non-REM sleep, in which stage 4 can be REALLY deep, as in, a bomb wouldn't wake you up. Since this is usually a state we normally dream in (or can recall if we do) then I don't see how one can consciously control the depth (or shallowness) of dreamless sleep attained - before the first REM cycle happens, that is. When you say you "feel yourself" going deeper, it sounds like you are bypassing the typical non-REM phases that normally happen first.

As for bedwetting, I don't know if you can just dismiss all that is known about it. There are various causes for it, including stress, drinking too much, an injury or undeveloped bladder. We've all had dreams of urinating and (usually) wake up dry and relieved, I suspect occasionally a little might leak out, but as for FULL accidents, I believe these are not accompanied by dreams of urinating. I thought they happened during non-REM sleep.

And even if it happened during REM, that would mean the explanation for chronic bedwetters was that they dreamed of peeing EVERY night. Who has any sort of recurring dream THAT consistently?

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taniaaust1
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby taniaaust1 » 11 May 2015 10:39

astrovineyard wrote:. There are various causes for it, including stress, drinking too much, an injury or undeveloped bladder.


of cause where there is physiological causes for it its a different story but stress, its a fact it can mess up or change sleep, stress can cause things like false awakenings or other sleep changes.. so it isnt hard to see how stress could well cause someone to think they are in real toilet when they aren't. Drinking too much if alcohol is known to cause confusion.. so once again it would be easier to dream one is in real toilet and pee onself.. even with drinking too much water, a full bladder would have to impact on dreams and cause more toilet dreams as whatever one thinks or is aware of, does often appear in a dream.

So though different causes of a wet bed, there could well be due to similar other underlying cause of someone thinking they are in a real toilet when they just are not.

but as for FULL accidents, I believe these are not accompanied by dreams of urinating. I thought they happened during non-REM sleep.


Is there any study on this you've seen to make you believe that full accidents not of a physiological cause are not accompanied of dreams of urinating?

I saw a study done on the types of dreams with REM and non REM sleep and it found that non REM dreams often varied from REM dreams as they were usually of the kind in which one is doing normal life stuff, in REM though people tended to have stranger dreams rather then just just of doing their normal life stuff. So it does make sense then that people may be dreaming more about going to a real toilet in such a sleep state esp in a non REM seeing these dreams mimic real life.

And even if it happened during REM, that would mean the explanation for chronic bedwetters was that they dreamed of peeing EVERY night. Who has any sort of recurring dream THAT consistently?


Chronic bedwetters may have something physiologically wrong..... or may well be having reincurring dreams of going to the loo. Going to the loo is a common dream symbol for many. For many years it was my most common dream symbol and I dreamed on going to the toilet once to twice a night. So from my own experience with this symbol I can say its certainly possible to be dreaming this consistently.

Being "pissed off" in life about something, so being stressed can cause toilet dreams. Also someone doing a lot of releasing of stuff can also get a lot of toilet dreams.

http://sealifedreams.com/en/user/94/journal if you look at my dream journal though Ive stopped having very regular toilet dreams for a very long time now.. its still ranked as my 13th top dream symbol on the list. At one point going to the toilet was rated as my 3rd I think it was (maybe it could of been 2nd most common) dream symbol after family and children. I did have toilet dreams nightly! I used to get 7-9 dreams per night at 1-2 of them a night were toilet dreams. The things I say are actually based on my experiences with things, studies Ive read and others experiences.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby astrovineyard » 13 May 2015 13:09

We seem to have changed subjects but still interesting.

I don't have any studies to immediately point to (many are memories of articles or books I read before the internet revolution). But with regard to bedwetting and dreaming of urinating, I don't recall a link between the two. In fact, urination dreams are so rare that when they happen you'd THINK you'd have an accompanying accident when you did, if only because you weren't used to it. "Dreaming" bedwetters ought to know "here we go again," much like someone in SP can recognize the situation and take measures to end or transform it.

I think some of the "little facts" floating in my head on the subject leading me to disagree with you go something like this:

1. Having the same dream EVERY night is quite rare, so always dreaming of peeing to point to a cause for bedwetting is not likely.

2. Bedwetters are notoriously difficult to wake up, because, I've read, they are in DEEP sleep, which I always understood to not be REM sleep.

3. Accidents usually happen within hours of sleep, when non-REM deep sleep is more prevalent than REM. This runs contrary to the "full bladder near morning" that would explain a genuine need to go.

4. Accounts of bedwetters I've read don't seem to mention or deny any dream of urinating - just waking up wet with no memory. Now, of course they can have forgotten the dream, but without any proof I guess you can't say one way or another if a dream happened, let alone one involving urination.

(I recently had a 10-year-old nephew have an accident while being babysat. We were both surprised but he was quite brave in admitting it. It was not a full accident, or so it appeared, and when I asked he said he didn't dream about anything before he woke up.)

So, anyway, bedwetting aside, have we figured out how to sleep through the Blitz yet?

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taniaaust1
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby taniaaust1 » 14 May 2015 15:26

astrovineyard wrote:1. Having the same dream EVERY night is quite rare, so always dreaming of peeing to point to a cause for bedwetting is not likely.


Not the same dream, just a reincuring dream theme. I experienced going to the loo in all different locations.. from home to fairs to sports places. Different toilets and different situations around the toilets. Sometimes having to wait in a queue first. Dreams always different just a reincurring theme where I'd end up going.

I personally don't think reincurring dream themes of some kind of another are that rare. Thing is most forget a lot of their dreams if they even remember them at all.

3. Accidents usually happen within hours of sleep, when non-REM deep sleep is more prevalent than REM. This runs contrary to the "full bladder near morning" that would explain a genuine need to go.


If not in REM that would support some what I said about them possibly dreaming it as its non REM dreams in which we more commonly do our normal daily life stuff in them


Now, of course they can have forgotten the dream, but without any proof I guess you can't say one way or another if a dream happened, let alone one involving urination.


nods.. it is a possibility though esp since most forget their dreams so wouldn't remember esp if they are in a deep sleep.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby astrovineyard » 15 May 2015 04:53

On the last thing you said..... that if this is true (that most people can't remember their dreams), then how can you claim that the cause of bedwetting is "dreaming about peeing"? What avalanche of "dream evidence" can you point to, when these very alleged dreams are themselves forgotten?

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taniaaust1
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Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby taniaaust1 » 13 Oct 2015 15:49

astrovineyard wrote:On the last thing you said..... that if this is true (that most people can't remember their dreams), then how can you claim that the cause of bedwetting is "dreaming about peeing"? What avalanche of "dream evidence" can you point to, when these very alleged dreams are themselves forgotten?


I said it can be the cause of some. I say this as I've met people who did dream of going to the loo and did wet their beds when they did (they told me this). I base what I say on what some people have told me. I've been studying peoples dreams for probably over 20 years. I did weekly classes for years studying dream and psychic symbolism etc

and I don't see how you can dispute the fact that many dreams are forgotten. When I hold all night awareness or near all night. I find I dream about 7-9 dreams per night on average. Most people are lucky to remember just a couple they had in the night if that. Lots of people if you ask what they dreamed, will say they don't know.
The only thing to fear is the fear itself

astrovineyard
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Joined: 29 Jan 2015 04:49

Re: Is it possible to change the DEPTH at which we sleep?

Postby astrovineyard » 19 Oct 2015 04:33

By the way, I am sleeping much better at night. Not perfect, but no more sleepless nights or even hours. I do still take melatonin but every so often I skip it and sometimes I get a good night's sleep even when I do that.

I can remember a lot of my dreams, but sometimes I forget them if they are unremarkable or I don't think about them when I first wake up. The memory fades fast.

But anyway, the insomnia seems gone, and still there is no SP or LD, and I don't think I am quite ready to try again.


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