Lucid Dreaming and LSD

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luckycloud
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Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby luckycloud » 16 Nov 2015 17:38

I understand this may be a touchy topic, and a topic that many have little to no information on, but I'm curious to your guy's input.
So I'm a semi-regular LSD user, and a Lucid Dreamer.
When tripping, as you may know, it's nearly impossible to sleep, no matter how exhausted your body is. So I was in bed trying to sleep when coming down off a trip one night, and I realized how still my body was, but my mind was wildly awake. I saw visions, very realistic as if beginning a WILD almost. So i wondered, due to the exhaustion at the end of a trip, could I use the sleeplessness of LSD as a catalyst for inducing a WILD? I must say that it is exceptionally easy at this point to envision things, and keep your body perfectly still. And even so, could the LSD itself effect the content of the dream once the WILD has begun? I know that when I sleep after tripping I wake up recalling very wild and intense dreams, though they never became lucid.

Thoughts?
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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby Summerlander » 16 Nov 2015 19:22

I've experimented with many drugs but never LSD. I don't think it has much to do with lucidity but it may be linked to the vividity of dreams. I might be able to help you ascertain whether or not acid can actuate lucidity by asking you a few questions, though.

You see, I have a theory that says drugs that make you 'daydream' (like cannabis which can lead to paranoia), or think too much (like cocaine which can give you jitters), work against lucidity or mental clarity.

This is why meditation--which can help one to stay focused in the present moment and be fully aware (no distactions)--can aid the induction of lucid dreams (both WILDs and DILDs). So my question is, does LSD cause your mind to stray or do you hallucinate with a presence of mind grounded in the now?

Take acid again and make close observations as I did with cannabis in this thread:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16533

"The mind is ostensibly becoming so convoluted -- a kind of pollution, it seems -- that an unnatural propensity for confusion is perceived. I feel lost and slightly queasy. A little anxious. Why must I feel this way? I talk to my wife and ask her if she wants a cup of tea thinking that I need something, too, something that will keep me distracted from this mental pestilence that I believe should be kept hidden from my wife. I feel that if I tell her about this mild torture that she will somehow begin to experience it, too. I feel I should make that tea as quickly as I can. I think of tea as a life saver, the bringer of peace and tranquillity.

My wife knows I'm stoned and suggests that we watch Jesse V. Johnson's "The Package" starring Steve Austin and Dolph Lundgren. I tell her about my experiment. I sense that dialogue is a bit of an effort. Too many thoughts, the heart is racing, and I am slightly paranoid about what my wife is thinking. I need to sit down and rest. I deliberately recall past bad trips and lows in the hope of ameliorating my mental state. I remember being so stoned once that I freaked out at the sight of people performing body suspension with hooks at a pain party on Karl Pilkington's "The Moaning of Life." There was a man saying he is happy when he feels pain and I thought he was a right weirdo. Pilkington was the only normal individual there, a hero striving to understand a perceived mad world.

I realise the film is on and think that it might be interesting to see how I perceive it. I worry about how I come across to my wife. The ego is certainly magnified! If there is a permanent state of enlightenment, I am light-years away from it. Living in this condition is problematic. I watch the film and feel like a child observing events in an adult world where the protagonist (Steve Austin's character) is always right and not to be fucked with because he is an unbreakable tough guy and it is wise not to be on the wrong side of him. I'm unusually self-aware as I watch The Package, as opposed to being absorbed by the film and forgetting myself. My mind is too concerned about ego, it keeps asking what I would do in the situations depicted in the film. I briefly ruminate about these conceptions and make an attempt to transcend them.

Then it dawns on me. How can I be the thinker of my own thoughts, the author of these emergent excogitations, when my own mind asks me questions? Or I ask myself questions? But why? Then I realise that I am not really talking to myself; rather, this phenomenal mind is using input data from the external world to further its activity -- making associations which serve to preserve and expound upon my identity. It seems to be answering a question that should have never been asked: "Who am I?" So it creates and expands an intricate narrative in order to answer the mental non sequitur.

The mind has authored me and not the other way around. It builds me. I realise I am nothing until it answers questions based on events perceived in the objective world. It's strange. It asks, in a way, how is he supposed to act in that situation as though it should have a contingency plan. My identity, it seems, is a mental piece in the making, not a work of completion. This seems to me an unusual way of realising anatta. The sense of self has remained but I understand that it is not an eternal soul. The self exists only as an illusion, a fiction somehow concocted by cerebral data, a goliath of a knot in the field of pure consciousness. Now I understand the thought and therefore emergent concept of 'observer' as opposed to the thought of 'observed.' Hence the epiphenomenal sense of dichotomy. I think if I shatter this dichotomous illusion I will annihilate the ego.

Suddenly, there is a mental pressure urging me to pay attention to the film. 'You're missing out!' it says. There is an overwhelming hedonic compulsion to follow the plot. The challenge to be mindful seems to be greater in this state. Or perhaps this state makes one realise that there is a challenge to surmount. I sip my tea and try to relax. I'm sweating a little. Body temperature has risen. Am I thinking too much again? My tension has diminished but my preoccupation with ego remains unusually prominent. It's clear to me that it's a problem. Ego. What a snag! My wife is in the room, self-image is everything. I don't want to freak her out. I don't want... and I want to transcend the sense of self. Now, that I have managed to relax, there is a tendency to pay attention to details which doesn't even seem to be undergirded by proper curiosity. Where is this coming from? Doesn't even feel like a proper urge. Does it come from a prior wish to focus more? Is this a delayed reaction. The concept of free will is more absurd than ever before. I am certainly not in control. If one wants to take baby steps in the practice of mindfulness, this is not the ideal state. I feel like a neophyte thrust upon the hardest level.

I want to be mindful but, strangely, a part of me clearly does not want to mind. It seems to avoid focus in the present moment, it gets bored quickly, novelty wears off fugaciously. It never keeps still, it wants to go places in the realm of imagination. It's self-absorbed. It's selfish. Its doctrines are egoism and hedonism. It complains that the past didn't go so well, that there is always something better in the future, and it always overlooks the present. I realise this side of me is augmented in this altered state and it is never satisfied. This aspect of my psyche, it is clear to me, is unsustainable and needs to be addressed. I will never have proper peace as long as this exists. Perhaps it's a good thing that this intransigent ego doesn't live for long. Simultaneously, I am aware of the concept of not desiring so much. I can imagine it. I see it as a blissful place where true peace and happiness are found. A place where I keep still because I see no reason to move. Free from desires -- the best kind of contentedness. An "I" that doesn't move? Still like a placid lake, beautiful and pristine? An "I" with no worries and desires? There is no such thing. And then I realise I am just like Tommy Wick in the theatre of this thing I call 'my mind.'
"


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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

luckycloud
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby luckycloud » 16 Nov 2015 20:15

It varies to be completely honest with you. When on a large enough dosage, you quite literally don't pick up on any information that your senses are receiving. You don't interpret any words that are being spoken, you literally forget what you we're saying as you're saying it, you forget what you we're currently doing. I've coined that phenomena as "The Cycle", all it is really is just a vicious back and forth of remembering and forgetting, and getting stuck in one moment because of it. But due to such forgetfulness, one is completely "trapped" so to speak within the mind, simply taking in the transcendent phenomena that your consciousness is momentarily being subjected to. It's such phenomena that heavily induce a feeling of eternity in the individual. By the end of the trip it quite literally feels like an entire lifetime has been lived, 10 minutes feels like 3 hours and vice versa. I have meditated while tripping before and it was an extremely healing experience. Hours flew by without notice, subconscious visions danced on the dark of my eyelids. I was able to look inward on myself, and really focus on what I wanted to improve on as a person, and came out the other side of the trip a completely redeveloped person, and that is honestly a piece of the power that LSD can present to somebody, if treated with respect and utilized correctly.

As you said, staying focused and aware in the present moment can greatly aid the WILD/DILD experience, and I believe that LSD bolts you to the ground of the present moment so to speak; you haven't the slightest hint of future or past, everything just kind of happens as it does. And knowing this is what led me to the curiosity of utilizing LSD in Lucid Dreaming. However, all trips are significantly different, and vary greatly depending on the mindset you enter the trip with. I've experienced trips like the ones I've described above, and trips where I couldn't clear my head of cluttered thoughts to save my life. It's honestly a factor completely ruled by chance and by mindset. If you enter a trip completely fixated on attaining a meditative state, and building from there, chances are that it will happen.
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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby Summerlander » 16 Nov 2015 23:37

luckycloud wrote:It varies to be completely honest with you.


Yes, you're right. The effects of drugs can be unpredictable and often depend--as you said--on one's mindset at the time. I must point out that I had a happier kif-buzz after the one I described above. It could be that the second time around I was better prepared and with the apropos mindset. Is it possible that if you master the LSD trip you are then better able to nail the lucid dream practice? (I apologise in advance if the question is naive as I have no idea what an acid trip is like; I've taken psilocybin--whose effects people have told me are somewhat like an acid trip but not as 'dark'.)

luckycloud wrote:When on a large enough dosage, you quite literally don't pick up on any information that your senses are receiving. You don't interpret any words that are being spoken, you literally forget what you we're saying as you're saying it, you forget what you we're currently doing.


You see, it's the impairment of memory that worries me as memory interrelates with consciousness and this one--in its prime--is vital in lucid dreaming. But then again, in some lucid dreams we can have no idea what we are observing and be aware of that very fact. The awareness of ignorance or confusion is, in itself, a form of lucidity. Perhaps the lucid dream stage is partially evocative of an LSD trip for you? (It's worth noting that endogenous DMT--which is suspected of being responsible for dreams--and LSD are molecularly similar with the latter being a little more complex according to a Rick Strassman book I've read a while ago.)

luckycloud wrote:I've coined that phenomena as "The Cycle", all it is really is just a vicious back and forth of remembering and forgetting, and getting stuck in one moment because of it.


Sounds like an extremely warped perspective whereby control is not required. If so, the trip is more compatible with what one does whilst meditating (do nothing but observe as conceptions arise in the mind) than what one does whilst lucid dreaming (the almost compulsory actions of intensification/maintenance/prolongation besides the here-and-now focus that also features in meditation).

So we could say that, despite the connection that meditation shares with lucid dreaming in the sense of experiencers being lucid and having a presence of awareness in the now, oneironauts cannot afford the same calmness--or should I say 'stillness'?--which is taken for granted in both LSD trips and meditative states. More on what I mean about the responsibilities of lucid dreamers here:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1644

What about your sense of self during LSD trips? Is it usually augmented or diminished? Meaning, is it closer to how you feel when you watch a captivating film (you almost forget yourself or that you are watching as you are so absorbed) or is it closer to how you feel when you suddenly discover that a stranger is glowering at you (sense of self/ego is stronger/heightened)?

luckycloud wrote:But due to such forgetfulness, one is completely "trapped" so to speak within the mind, simply taking in the transcendent phenomena that your consciousness is momentarily being subjected to.


It's as if LSD makes it clear that all you have is your mind. And it's the truth, isn't it? And there is no escape. All you can do is accept what you perceive--even when it's distorted or fathomless. Would you say sometimes you feel trapped (during bad trips)? You described it as though it can be a gruelling experience ...

luckycloud wrote:It's such phenomena that heavily induce a feeling of eternity in the individual. By the end of the trip it quite literally feels like an entire lifetime has been lived, 10 minutes feels like 3 hours and vice versa.


So time perception can be severely warped on top of the extreme loss of touch with reality.

luckycloud wrote:I have meditated while tripping before and it was an extremely healing experience. Hours flew by without notice, subconscious visions danced on the dark of my eyelids. I was able to look inward on myself, and really focus on what I wanted to improve on as a person, and came out the other side of the trip a completely redeveloped person, and that is honestly a piece of the power that LSD can present to somebody, if treated with respect and utilized correctly.


Sounds positive and I'm happy for you. Mind-altering substances can bestow unprecedented perspectives on takers which urge them to try new approaches to life. Psychedelics can help you in the know thyself quest and indeed meditation also urges a bridle in the interpretation of percepts.

luckycloud wrote:However, all trips are significantly different, and vary greatly depending on the mindset you enter the trip with. I've experienced trips like the ones I've described above, and trips where I couldn't clear my head of cluttered thoughts to save my life. It's honestly a factor completely ruled by chance and by mindset.


I can see where your curiosity is coming from and you have certainly roused mine regarding this drug. LSD may at times cause your mind to strike you with a heavy barrage of thoughts when it catalyses your brain the way it does, but I believe even that in itself can help you to learn more about yourself; even the mental cacophony must tell you something. In meditation, the realisation that your mind is noisy and you stray quite often is already a major step in the right direction.

luckycloud wrote:If you enter a trip completely fixated on attaining a meditative state, and building from there, chances are that it will happen.


It may be possible that LSD will be a great tool for you as a lucid dreamer, but this might not be applicable to everyone. I hope this is helping so far. Next time you trip, make more observations and I'd be greatful if you posted them here. I'm somewhat of a psychonaut myself. :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

luckycloud
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby luckycloud » 17 Nov 2015 04:05

[quote]What about your sense of self during LSD trips? Is it usually augmented or diminished? Meaning, is it closer to how you feel when you watch a captivating film (you almost forget yourself or that you are watching as you are so absorbed) or is it closer to how you feel when you suddenly discover that a stranger is glowering at you (sense of self/ego is stronger/heightened)?/quote]

The sense of self is absolutely diminished. That's why I find the drug so useful when developing myself farther, I'm able to look upon the way I live my life without an egotistical perspective, and use that as a guide. I recall a very distinct feeling during one trip. I stood for awhile in one spot, just turning in circles completely enthralled by the hallucinations around me. It felt like I was on another planet, but not just another planet, a planet that could communicate with you. The synesthesia between my hearing and sight was all sorts of entangled, and the hallucination danced and matched the music that I had playing. I felt so happy, joyous, carefree. I remember feeling like I was not observing all this crazy stuff, [i]but a part of it[i], and you're simply along for the ride. I suppose thats why they call it a trip.

[quote]It's as if LSD makes it clear that all you have is your mind. And it's the truth, isn't it? And there is no escape. All you can do is accept what you perceive--even when it's distorted or fathomless. Would you say sometimes you feel trapped (during bad trips)? You described it as though it can be a gruelling experience .../quote]

You're absolutely correct. A primary reason that people can so easily lose touch with reality and become very frightened is because they're uncertain of which sounds are actually there, and which ones aren't. Many times I've asked my friend what he just said and he responds with "I didn't say anything"? Yet I swore he just spoke, I just heard him clear as day. And when tripping alone I've noticed that auditory hallucination run rampant; You hear your thoughts as if they're out loud, and without the correct mindset can be rightly terrifying, especially if you allow negative thoughts to enter the space. I make sure that I understand that anything that my senses pick up on could be a potential hallucination and not to read too much into it to avoid scaring myself. One must simply be willing to accept that preparedness.
Regarding the "bad trip" feeling. Trapped is a perfect word for it. Once a bad trip starts, you can't stop it. That's why it's so important to maintain positivity going into the trip. I was on a particularly larger trip one night, and I had smoked some ganja on top of that. Now, cannabis and LSD can be really fun, but ultimately a recipe for paranoia. I got stuck, so to speak, I found it nearly impossible to move my body. Suddenly I begin having an out of body experience; and of course this was a phenomena that I was unfamiliar with then, and it terrified me to the core. All the negative thoughts started spiraling in, and newer phenomena just kept scaring me and scaring me. The bad trip not only impaires your rational thinking, it begins to effect you physically, as if this scary state of being is slowly harming you. So for the remainder of that night, though I wanted badly to laugh and enjoy this with my friends, the state I was caught in wouldn't allow me.

[quote]So time perception can be severely warped on top of the extreme loss of touch with reality./quote]

Yes, absolutely. During the night I described above, I asked myself many times if I was going crazy, if my friends think I'm crazy. Of course I kept it rational even though I was tripping out. And just like Einstein's Theory of Relativity, things that aren't enjoyable seem longer. And my God that trip felt like an eternity.
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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby Summerlander » 18 Nov 2015 00:03

luckycloud wrote:The sense of self is absolutely diminished. That's why I find the drug so useful when developing myself farther, I'm able to look upon the way I live my life without an egotistical perspective, and use that as a guide. I recall a very distinct feeling during one trip. I stood for awhile in one spot, just turning in circles completely enthralled by the hallucinations around me.


So LSD can also be liberating in this sense--it can free you from your perceived self (the user illusion) and egotistical preoccupations--thus making room, as it were, to the potential of new and improved models of self as well as appreciation of even the subtlest percepts. Usually, the normal brain does not, by default, have the patience to turn in circles in one spot--just like meditation can be a drag to beginners. But LSD allows you to achieve a mental state whereby you can perform such simple actions with joy and ecstasy. (And with the added bonus of concomitant, hallucinatory beauty.)

luckycloud wrote:It felt like I was on another planet, but not just another planet, a planet that could communicate with you.


I think I have experienced something like this on Mexican magic mushrooms. I kind of know what you mean and know where the excitement is coming from. It's like you have entered a new world ... another dimension even! 8-)

luckycloud wrote:The synesthesia between my hearing and sight was all sorts of entangled, and the hallucination danced and matched the music that I had playing. I felt so happy, joyous, carefree. I remember feeling like I was not observing all this crazy stuff, but a part of it, and you're simply along for the ride. I suppose thats why they call it a trip.


Wow! A joyous, blissful, harmonious and enlightening--in the sense that you realised the truth of being a part of something bigger (usually accompanied by the ego falling away in meditation). :-)

luckycloud wrote:And when tripping alone I've noticed that auditory hallucination run rampant; You hear your thoughts as if they're out loud, and without the correct mindset can be rightly terrifying, especially if you allow negative thoughts to enter the space. I make sure that I understand that anything that my senses pick up on could be a potential hallucination and not to read too much into it to avoid scaring myself. One must simply be willing to accept that preparedness.


It's amazing that you can literally hear yourself think as though thinking is a voice sourced from the objective world. I am also glad that you know the brass tacks of LSD use--so many don't! This also applies to all drugs: people tend to use them irresponsibly--abuse them even--which only provides ammo for sensationalist media to concoct horror stories when mishaps occur. (Needless to say, as I'm sure you are well aware, the corollary of such is that demagogic governments stigmatise mind-altering substances and criminalise them in order to please an ignorant populace instead of educating/informing them.)

luckycloud wrote:Suddenly I begin having an out of body experience; and of course this was a phenomena that I was unfamiliar with then, and it terrified me to the core. All the negative thoughts started spiraling in, and newer phenomena just kept scaring me and scaring me. The bad trip not only impaires your rational thinking, it begins to effect you physically, as if this scary state of being is slowly harming you. So for the remainder of that night, though I wanted badly to laugh and enjoy this with my friends, the state I was caught in wouldn't allow me.


Interesting. Combining both substances caused you to have an OBE--which you can experience via lucid dreaming. The terror and the irrationality kicking in is akin to sleep paralysis--where the amygdalae, which is associated with fear and the fight-or-flight reaction, is activated. (I wonder if LSD catalyses brains in similar ways, sometimes, depending on the brain state of the individual at the time.) I think it is also worth mentioning that I once smoked so much skunk that paranoia kicked in before I passed out and subsequently experienced an OBE.

luckycloud wrote:And just like Einstein's Theory of Relativity, things that aren't enjoyable seem longer. And my God that trip felt like an eternity.


I know what you mean, brother. It's horrible. Your mind turns into a torture chamber. I've been there with other substances.

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

timtiel
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby timtiel » 18 Nov 2015 02:49

Dont do LSD man :D dont get me wrong im not a anti-drug person. But especially LSD could be harming in long term :(

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby Summerlander » 18 Nov 2015 08:22

Like tobacco? :mrgreen:

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

timtiel
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby timtiel » 18 Nov 2015 15:08

Yeah also :P more on the psychopathology side heh

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Summerlander
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Re: Lucid Dreaming and LSD

Postby Summerlander » 18 Nov 2015 18:49

I met a bloke at university who was a regular LSD taker. We used to call him 'blind man Matt'. (He used to invite people to his room on campus to socialise and he looked after his guests by giving them drugs; he's the one who introduced me to shrooms.)

Matt told us that in his late teens he had taken a massive dose of LSD and woke up blind the following day. It's hard to say whether the drug caused it or he was already destined to lose the power of sight even if he hadn't taken acid.

Even if LSD did cause Matt to go blind, it doesn't mean that it will affect everyone in the same way. The same goes for induced psychopathy. It's no different to peanuts--some people are allergic and the majority are fine with it. ;-)

As a man in his mid-thirties, Matt still remembered what it was like to see--and indeed he had a tenuous ability to see in his dreams. (His dream characters were always faceless, though, and despite regularly using sight as a dream cue, he wasn't always able to reach lucidity.) :geek:

Anyway, I'm sure Luckycloud appreciates your concerns, timtiel. But he may be willing to play the guinea pig in this in order to learn more about the practical uses of LSD in regards to lucid dreaming. :-)

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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