WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

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TillyPink
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WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby TillyPink » 24 Jan 2016 00:59

Was on Michael Reduga's forum (which is pretty dead now) as I was just trying to help out a friend who is specifically into Lucid/OBE'ing/astral and I knew about (but not studied) The Phase and thought it may be his thing. All in the same melting pot as it were. While I was there I read some of the blogs. Does anybody know what is the difference between an OBE perceived during a WILD and what he calls The Phase? It seems that people have experiences where they are actually 'out of body' as it were. Every one of my WILD's these days is a perceived OBE entry. I just assume that was the last place I was and jump out my dream bedroom window or wherever I am (back of van lol) and get on with my lucid dream. It can be quite annoying as I don't tend to arrive straight into a formed or forming dream anymore. But I just 'get out of my body' (or occasionally work with the illusion and linger there after RC'ing in meditation attempt) I am now asking questions ...one guy was saying how he got to his front door and felt himself being tugged back...most people talking about exploring their houses. One or two were really quite convincing and interesting stories. I just assume my house is an illusion. Is there a difference between say and ACTUAL OBE or a perceived one? Im sure this is up for debate, but from experiences, what do people think? My mind is boggling. I didn't really believe in actual body separation. Only separation of consciousness. Even though phsyical sensations are intense. Although this is something I have worked on as they used to frighten me when I was having them regularly as too intense...so now I have learned to 'linger' a little as said above and not trace the whole transition consciously...so they ease up. Anyway, anyone interested in this subject? I've just got more things to be scary about, go me. :roll:

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Summerlander
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby Summerlander » 24 Jan 2016 02:26

I have worked closely with Michael Raduga before and I head the Phase Managing Department at the OOBE Research Center. Raduga is very pragmatic and employs the term 'phase' (or 'phase state') simply to refer to that hybrid cerebral activity--at around 40 Hz of the Gamma bandwidth--which makes out-of-body experiences, lucid dreaming and false awakenings possible.

Raduga is a hard-nosed researcher who is of the opinion that it is all in the head. Nothing separates from the body (all OBEs are illusions) and lucid dreaming is the optimal phase state as the experiencer correctly identifies what is perceived as a dream rather than believing it's some esoteric spirit realm, the real world or, as New Age mystics like Robert Bruce would have you swallow, 'real-time zone'. The phase state is simply the union of waking consciousness and REM sleep--to be awake in the dream world.

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TillyPink
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby TillyPink » 24 Jan 2016 14:19

Thanks for that. Yes was going to PM you but thought I would put it up as topic. I sent my buddy in that direction for exactly that reason. I was referring to the blog entries, that people were exploring their houses as if they had really left their bodies, or feeling like they could not go that far, which to me sounds more akin to the belief that one has actually 'left' one's body! Like buying into the illusion of it. Having had some pretty intense OBE entry WILDs, it is hard sometimes not to ask these questions. Yes especially when people like Robert Bruce go on about it. But thanks for the down to earthiness response.

Personal question.. to an experienced practitioner....just for clarification....so when you use the phase and perceive separation from your body, you do what the heck you like yes? As one would in a high level clarity lucid dream? Only we start in the last place we went to sleep, as that is how our mind perceives it? It can be very convincing right?! But it is just an altered state of consciousness. An illusion. Nothing leaves. Consciousness and perception are the only travellers when we consciously enter sleep and dream.

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Summerlander
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby Summerlander » 25 Jan 2016 00:37

Regions of the brain such as the thalamus are thought to sometimes provoke distortions in proprioception during the phase state--hence the perceived separations from the sleeping body into usually inaccurate (yet familiar) replicas of real world, i.e. mental bedroom representations based on memory and sprinkled with distortions and additions from the subconscious mind.

So, yeah, once you apparently leave your body, you can do whatever you like. (It is best to have an action plan ready, though, in order to avoid hesitation which could cause a premature awakening.) Make no mistake about it: the dream world can closely emulate--and even outdo--the real world in quality. So if you recognise the phase state surroundings to be an illusion, you are lucid dreaming. You can always, of course, be sceptic of the sceptic and, if in doubt, try to read the pages of a book during an OBE to see if they remain fixed and if they match that of the real world.

Consciousness, in my opinion, is a phenomenon which is somehow generated by a physical gestalt. (The details of its emergence are still unknown.) If I were to define it, though, I'd say it is merely what it is like to be something--and perception cannot exist without it. What perceives? Not a soul--as endorsers of the orphic and supernatural would have you believe. The physical system somehow perceives and we are yet to suss out how the human brain works.

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RobertForsythe
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby RobertForsythe » 18 Feb 2016 18:29

I find this discussion to be very interesting. It would be nice if some sort of dichotomy could be defined and generally accepted but I doubt that can be accomplished.

I believe that the Monroe Institute likely has a pile of great data that could be used for this but it seems that so many there are very limited in their outlook. Buhlman lectures there now and then but there doesn't seem to be any sort of real direction or progress related to his work. Thomas Campbell might well be the most advanced and capable OBE'er to come out of there but he seems to have a completely separate agenda nowadays.

Personally I find the "its all in your head" view to be grossly limited and is not dealing with the facts very well. Remote Viewing successes alone indicate that at the very least a time/space portal can be constructed and utilized. I know that when I roll out or float out of my body I definitely feel like I am leaving the body. When I walk it feels like walking and when I fly it feels like flying.

When someone "goes to a remote location" and brings back independently verifiable factual data and lab equipment verifies that his brain waves matched that of a lucid dreamer eating a sandwich it does not mean they are both simply in a similar dream state... not at all. They can each be having very different experiences at completely different levels of consciousness and the brain wave similarity means almost nothing.

Also, I wonder at this notion that once a dreamer becomes "lucid" he can proceed to do anything he wants, is not true at all. Those who set the bar very low may find this is true for them but those who have a difficult set of goals can fail a lot.
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taniaaust1
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby taniaaust1 » 19 Feb 2016 11:26

. I just assume my house is an illusion. Is there a difference between say and ACTUAL OBE or a perceived one? Im sure this is up for debate, but from experiences, what do people think?


Yes there is a difference. Those who often haven't experienced what is clearly an OBE will keep thinking that some just have perceived OBEs. It can really be hard to tell unless you are able to get some vertification in some way that you aren't just dreaming what you are eg by seeing things astrally you couldn't have otherwise known about. I've had several verification incidences which make me know OBEs are a reality.

What is interesting is that people who have never been taught or read anything at all on OBEs will often have very similar experiences with it eg vibrations, finding themselves separating and then being out of body in their room, feeling an energy pull back to their bodies etc etc.

If you read a lot of OBE stuff though it is possible though to start lucid dreaming you are OBE.

Here's some of my OBE experiences which verified to me that I do more then just LD (and they feel very very slightly different too but not in a way which can be explained as they are so very close in feel so even if you have had both, it would be easy to still sometimes confuse.. one can also be OBE but also slightly dreaming too.. just like you can start day dreaming while awake and have mind wander off, so mixed experiences are possible too. I can tell I'm OBE probably 90% of time as often it is clear to me that I are eg are you sure you are physically awake and here right now?.. yes you are. Its just like that, one often just knows but you cant go by things like how vivid the experience is etc).

I'll start with my most convincing OBEs are real experience

incident 1
- I had an spontanous OBE after going to bed (knew I was OBE and not LD) in which I ended up floating up by my ceiling (very common spontaneous thing to happen in an OBE) and saw something on my wardrobe top. So I floated over to it and inspected it, it was a $20 voucher for a local store I didn't even know did vouchers. Of cause once I got back to body I got a chair and looked up on that wardrobe, sure enough it was really there with all the same details.. the same shop, the same amount.

My boyfriend had got this voucher for me for a gift (not something he'd ever got for me before) and hid it on my wardrobe top. He was so angry that I knew about it from the OBE and didn't believe I'd seen it during a OBE and accused me of spying on him and "you must of seen me hide it".

Obviously that wasn't a dream unless I'm highly psychic in dreams!! My experience fit with OBE in every way.
.........

incident 2

I got out of body (knew I was OBE and not LD) and went to kitchen and inspected how all the dishes etc were sitting on my sink including ones my children had put there. I then went back in my body and got out of bed right away and went to see how correct it was. It was completely correct. (I know someone like summerlander would probably say it may of gone into my memory before I'd gone to bed to try to OBE but I really hadn't paid no attention at all to dishes on my sink and I was able to go and check them out once I got out).

.........

incident 3

I got out of body and recognised I was OBE and not LD.. it had been ages since I'd been OBE as I'd been instead working on dreams and LD for quite a few years so was surprised when I found myself suddenly standing in my bedroom as it normaly is. My OBEs usually start off in bedroom, more often with me floating..but on this occasion I found myself standing and in human form (I can either be in energy ball/spirit ball form or in human form when I do LD).

So of cause I wanted to check my house out (I always check to make sure my house is "clear" and hasn't got astral entities in it esp if I hadn't been OBE for a while, I had issues with spiritual attacks and real entities for a time). So I start looking around my home.

So I walked out of my bedroom, into my hall way and then walked into my lounge room but to my surprise it wasn't as expected. (when I'm OBE in real time every other time I experience my house how it actually is and can see real things even if I hadn't known they were previously there). The following made me wonder if maybe I was wrong and I wasn't OBE but maybe LD instead but not realising that.. anyway, I was now rather confused as it felt like an OBE but there really shouldn't have been then what I was seeing in my lounge.

My lounge room was covered in children's presents which had just been obviously opened but then left, wrapping paper ripped and screwed up everywhere. With my confusion at what I was seeing "this shouldn't be here in my house astral" (which usually is replicate of physical) so I dropped out of my OBE experience and suddenly hit body again.

Still trying to figure out why on earth I'd seen what I did while OBE and trying to make sense of it as it didn't feel like LD, I asked my young daughter when she woke up what she'd dreamed that night (without telling her what I saw).. she told me she'd dreamed it was her birthday and she'd had a party and got lots of presents which she'd opened in our lounge room. (she couldn't remember dreaming anything else that night). coincidental?

How the astral works is that things imprint onto it, not just physical world things but also thoughts and feelings, the stronger then are, the longer they can last there.. her dream had affected the astral world of our house. I'm sure those astral projections wouldn't have lasted long at all there but I must of got OBE very soon after she had her dream before the imprint she'd put onto it had faded. (or did she do this in the astral though she was dreaming?).

anyway, it made complete sense to me why I'd astrally seen as I did in our lounge room once she told me what she'd dreamed.

......

incident 4

I got out of body, knew I was OBE and decided I wanted to visit an occultic (wiccian high priest) teacher I had at time. I was new to all this stuff at time, hadn't really thought much about what was good morals around this or realised there could be danger involved in astrally trying to visit someone who was head of a big coven unannounced. (this was before I knew there was such thing as astral dangers).

So I started to think of his place and of being there, trying to astrally will myself to another location, his. The moment I did that things went unexpected, this thing, it was an energy being or an energy grabbed me and trapped me and then started squeezing me. The more I fought to get away the harder and tighter it had me. I thought I was going to die (It was like being astrally suffocated, yeah I know this sounds weird). It had me so hard it hurt, I started screaming. I thought it was going to kill me. I did that to no avail.

Then I started to scream out to him for help as I didn't know what else to do (after all he was my wiccian energy teacher), I also screamed to the energy I meant no harm and it then released me. I fled straight back to my body and got up. (I was so scared).

Of cause I asked my teacher what on earth had happened. He then explained to me that I never should of done that without asking him. It turned out I'd experienced the protection, his ward he had around his house (I didn't know that witches protected their houses at that time!! I was such a noob at this stuff back then). He kept something there to protect his house and TO PREVENT ANY ASTRAL INTRUDERS ENTERANCE. I can say it certainly stopped me!!!!! (I didn't get to go anywhere into his house, that thing was quick and grabbed me the moment I tried).
..

along the above kind of note but a bit different. I once tried to astral project into the white house in amercia just for a look around there but was prevented from doing so... some kind of shield or block has been placed there. Years later I ended up reading experiences from a couple of others who also tried and experienced same thing as me (I'm yet to hear of a astral projector actually managing to go in there).. they too were prevented and said its shielded.

Ask any experienced astral projector to visit white house who doesn't know this and they will experience same thing. There seems to be two different kinds of shielding put up there, so I guess they must have a backup one in case someone gets throu the first (one is a simple astral block wall where you are trying to push in but it stops, that's the one I hit.. (depending on how many helped place that there, it may be easy for some to breach if they had a very strong will but most casual OBErs just with simple curiousity like me to get into there would be blocked by it. With some effort Ive once smashed down this kind of shield myself when it was placed by just one person).

the other white house shielding Ive heard 2 others say they've hit is more complex and like a redirection shield where you are taken elsewhere or mentally distracted away from the place over and over again (every time you try to focus in), from what Ive heard from others and from what I personally know about occultic stuff, I wonder if its more like a telepathic block, where your own thoughts of where you are trying to go get interfered with (I haven't experienced the redirection shield but just the simple block which I think must be the first line of astral defence there .... neither scary like my other experience when I tried to intrude on my wiccian teachers personal space)
....

incident 5 - OBE weirdness

It's morning and I'm trying to get OBE at will. My children have just got up for school and I'm wondering what they are doing while at the same time trying to get out of body so I decide to try to OBE into my kitchen where they are doing their breakfast. I try to manifest myself OBE standing near my kitchen table to move my energy there. (I was trying to use an occultic OBE method, like a "watcher" OBE technique where energy is shifted and one then sees out of it, like remote views if one doesn't fully get manifested in the place).

My kids suddenly freaked out and brought me out of my deep state as they come running into my room. They are freaking out and say a chair started sliding across the floor. It just so happens that that chair had been left out from the table and actually had been placed in the very spot where I'd been trying to stand. (they didn't know I was trying to OBE and would of had no idea at all I'd been trying to stand in that very spot. Both my kids have seen spirits at times, one is a natural medium but neither saw me or an energy form there, just were started by hearing chair sliding on floor and then seeing it actually moving).

nearly LDs do not move physical objects.. actually I don't know if Ive heard before of an OBE person moving an object either accidental or otherwise though poltigists are known for moving physical things

..............


then there is the astral experience I probably missed realising it was astral???. I had a what I thought was a dream (not a LD) in which I had my daughter call out for help, she was screaming "help" and I went to her rescue (I cant at all remember my dream before she started screaming for help), she was on like a grassy hilly place and 3 people/adults (2 men and a women I think it was? I cant remember now) were attacking her. One of the men hit her over the head. I went to her aid and saved her.

I woke up and got up to go to the loo but on walking past daughters room see she is wide awake, laying there with eyes open so I asked her what is wrong. She tells me she just had a nightmare and just woke from it. I asked her to describe her nightmare and it was the same as my dream, she'd called me for help etc etc, same place, same people, same attack where she was hit over the head by one. etc.

stuff like this cant be a coincidence.. shared dreaming?? or astral?? (she though it was just a normal dream/nightmare too and wouldn't have thought anything more about it if we hadn't realised we had same dream at SAME TIME).

...

If someone is having real time/place OBE experiences, I say based on my own experiences sooner or later you will know these cant be LDs and have to be something else. I personally met someone who took a photo of two of his friends who could do OBE at will and they got out of body and posed for camera (it was quite an interesting photo he showed me of this).

An author of one of the OBE books, he vertified he was really OBE by managing to pinch an actual person and then have this vertified afterwards (he actually left bruises on the other). there are many different ways you may be able to vertify these experiences. I once had someone who was physical, astrally punch me in the guts (it really doubled me over physically.. psychic attack on physical me, she'd got annoyed at me), Ive no idea if most who are astral can do those things to anothers body. I've never experimented myself in that way and I are very sensitive to energies so maybe another wouldn't have experienced the punch I did from this other??

I don't know if others who do real time OBE get this too as Ive never read anything on this.... but one thing I find very different to my LDs is that time runs in the same manner in my real time OBEs as it does in real life eg if 5 or 20 mins has gone by in my OBE, I'll know that 20 mins or the same time has gone by in real life so will have a good idea what time is when I hit body again. My LDs, time runs faster while I'm in the LD so many events can happen in a very short time period. I cant manage to do a lot in a real time LD with time running the same as normal
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RobertForsythe
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby RobertForsythe » 19 Feb 2016 19:31

Wow, taniaust, you said a mouthful here. I will quote a bit and try to reply to as many of the great points you bring up as I can before I run out of time.

What is interesting is that people who have never been taught or read anything at all on OBEs will often have very similar experiences with it eg vibrations, finding themselves separating and then being out of body in their room, feeling an energy pull back to their bodies etc etc.

If you read a lot of OBE stuff though it is possible though to start lucid dreaming you are OBE.

Here's some of my OBE experiences which verified to me that I do more then just LD


Much of what you say is accurate. There are universal characteristics of the OBE that a complete newbie would share with others who had no prior instruction at all. The first time I got the vibrations was back in the 1970's long before the internet and when there were only a few obscure books on the subject and I did not know enough to even look up the subject in a card catalogue. I was practicing a Buddhist meditation technique I had read about and wham! the vibrations hit like a bolt of lightning. I just laid there thinking my family was going to find a carbonized corpse in the morning. I had no idea what was happening.

I think it is good to separate the LD from an OBE as a conceptual understanding of these types of experiences. Those who want to glom it all into one pile reduce our ability to communicate the finer details of this skill.

I think I hold both the LD and the OBE on equal level, however... one is not better than the other. The invention of the car did not make the bicycle obsolete. They are both very useful.

I am curious about your report of reading exact details of a card on the highboy while OBE. Have you repeated this test? I have made MANY repetitions of this experiment and got a wide variety of results. I learned a LOT from this study. Words and numbers are more difficult for me to bring back than symbols and images.

I also travelled to a Kabalistic Temple and something kept me from entering. The Grand Master told me later, "Hmmm, I guess the protection spells are working..." (I was not an initiate of that order)

I also went to a Temple on what I am willing to say was the Astral Plane and I was met with a set of doors that I had to open in a special manner. I will not go into details on an open forum.

I think there definitely are levels, planes and zones that many people deny exist because they never got there.

I think it is possible and even common & typical for OBEs to degrade into an LD and it is possible to consciously morph an LD into a low illusion, high awareness OBE.
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ThePurple
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby ThePurple » 19 Feb 2016 20:41

(Note: I wrote this after, and largely in response to, the reply by taniaaust1, before the next comment appeared, taking things in a somewhat different direction. Posting as is, because I think it is still relevant.)

We really don't give our unconscious enough credit.

Maybe people think I'm being a bit of a buzzkill when I say it seems explainable in wholly physiological and psychological terms, but I find it much more fascinating, personally. It's inspiring, in fact, to know that one can access knowledge that was stored in such a way that they don't even know they already had it.

It's no secret that there's more to communication that what we're consciously aware of, but I think it goes much deeper than many realize. Complex information can be transferred from one person to another without either realizing. While I haven't found a satisfactorily complete explanation for it, I'm staying open to the idea that this can sometimes happen over distances, though usually only when the relationship between individuals is strong. Some of the experiences lumped under the "psychic" term, otherwise littered with con artists, can be understood in this way.

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taniaaust1
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby taniaaust1 » 21 Feb 2016 02:56

RobertForsythe wrote:I think it is good to separate the LD from an OBE as a conceptual understanding of these types of experiences. Those who want to glom it all into one pile reduce our ability to communicate the finer details of this skill.


a big issue comes about with non real time and non this world OBEs, how do people separate these from lucid reams? (esp if they have never had a real time OBE to test things out with). Some things we will never be able to prove.

I think I hold both the LD and the OBE on equal level, however... one is not better than the other. The invention of the car did not make the bicycle obsolete. They are both very useful.


completely agree with that. I prefer LD for several reasons. I can even in a LD do dream analyses, in an LD I know I can do whatever I wish, I do not have to hold respect for the characters in it.. hence I can have more fun.. I do not have to worry about safety/morals and with LD some things are easier and I just love how readily my LD creates things into my experience.. (where I can get OBE and have a far more boring time unless I want to try to get somewhere).

I am curious about your report of reading exact details of a card on the highboy while OBE. Have you repeated this test? I have made MANY repetitions of this experiment and got a wide variety of results. I learned a LOT from this study. Words and numbers are more difficult for me to bring back than symbols and images.


the voucher wasn't a test as it was spontaneous but I get what you mean. You will fail if you are trying to test in a way it is likely to fail

eg if someone places a card somewhere to try to see it OBE but then cant read it or come back with the wrong thing, it may cause they actually did this test multiple times and put that card in same place with left multiple energetic imprints upon that space. With the astral plane, time can be overstepped and isn't set, in one location, present, past and future maybe etc.

I suggest to anyone going to place a card up somewhere and then try to read it, to only ever do it once in that spot.

Another thing which could cause it to fail is if you aren't really out of body but dreaming. We all know that writing and things like clocks and everything constantly changes in dreams or.. you may be OBE but also have some dreaming coming in (as you can day dream a little during the day as any thoughts can affect the astral plane too even if only temporary.. if are trying to look at something and putting preconceived notions onto that thing.. possibly you could end up getting an error and seeing your own "thought form").

If done with clear mind and no preconceived thoughts (when I viewed that voucher I had no thoughts at all about what it "could be" as I truly had no idea) and in real time (if you haven't confused things by putting your different test cards down in same place at different times) I don't know why one wouldn't be able to read something.

I though cant say I know enough about OBE to know other things which could come into play to prevent...oh and don't tell anyone else in your home what you are doing before the experiment (eg I'm putting this card up here to later guess it) as their own astral thought form may corrupt what you see if they start thinking and guessing what the card may be).

.....

I also travelled to a Kabalistic Temple and something kept me from entering. The Grand Master told me later, "Hmmm, I guess the protection spells are working..." (I was not an initiate of that order)

I also went to a Temple on what I am willing to say was the Astral Plane and I was met with a set of doors that I had to open in a special manner. I will not go into details on an open forum.

I think there definitely are levels, planes and zones that many people deny exist because they never got there.


I went to Halls of Amenti (I think they are in the Emerald Tablets, I cant remember where the instructions I used to get there came from). (crap I cant find it anymore online, I was going to post you the link, it was years ago and a website newsletter thing published my experience). The akastic records can be also accessed from there. I met the lords in the halls of amenti (I wasn't successful getting there for years, I did a lot of spiritual development first).

I think it is possible and even common & typical for OBEs to degrade into an LD and it is possible to consciously morph an LD into a low illusion, high awareness OBE.


I myself haven't had that issue with OBEs (or maybe I have at times but forgot, I haven't done OBE stuff for years as I enjoy LD more) though I can easily have a LD degrade and can end up in an unconscious dream with those if I wasn't careful
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taniaaust1
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Re: WILD/OBE M Raduga and Phase

Postby taniaaust1 » 21 Feb 2016 03:03

Robert.. just found my Amenti experience. I'm so glad its still online.

http://www.chosenones.net/article.php?id=624 (I don't understand why there is now ? all through my published post, I'm sure they weren't there before but oh well, just glad its still there. I wasn't asleep during this but during deep meditation and triggered by the power words DOREULLA ... LAUMILGAN... MERKUTELSHABEL HALEZURBENELZABRUT ZINEFRIMQUAREL. (you need to hold a very pure state while doing this).

Many of the sacred places have power words or entry codes to use to get in. .. and then you just need to hope you have the right energy to get in. That place and those "lords" beings held all knowledge. I haven't been back as it isn't a place you mess with.

Robert Bruce I think it was.. too has experienced light package of knowledge which was downloaded in energy form (I hadn't read of his experience when I had this one with the book of light). (I find his experiences very interesting as he's experienced many of things I had including stuff like the astral parasites etc).

.....

There is some kind of powerful ancient language out there (so it interested me to read that you'd maybe experienced one, I'm almost positive in another lifetime I could speak it but then only have a small memory to base that on).

I've also been on other side of it with an astral sorcessor.. it scared me as she had more knowledge and so I believed power then me and I didn't think she was good. I'd been online working with some occultic stuff to create something in the astral plane and then had her manifest right in front of me when I'd got up and was while walking through my lounge room to get to another room.

She had me backing up when she started this chant which raised all the hair on my head, my whole physical body started reacting with like static. (I was fully awake, I mean I was physically walking when she appeared. she took an interest in what I'd created in the astral plane and wanted it ... I wont go more into this as its so far out sounding but I half understand why she why she wanted it, I had certain energy she couldn't access which I'd put into my creation).

My astral experiences go beyond OBEs, Ive had quite a few spontaneous ones while fully awake and trying to go about my daily life stuff.
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