Science and Morality

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Summerlander
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Science and Morality

Postby Summerlander » 30 Mar 2018 05:19

'Values reduce to scientific facts about the wellbeing of conscious creatures.'

~Sam Harris

Science can tell us what's good and bad for us and will always be a better guide than religion because it will remain true to reality. Morality can be refined by science and reason. An 'ought' is what drives us to an 'is'. Science has a monopoly on ethics. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby RedKryptonite » 31 Mar 2018 17:47

Summerlander wrote:'Values reduce to scientific facts about the wellbeing of conscious creatures.'

~Sam Harris

Science can tell us what's good and bad for us and will always be a better guide than religion because it will remain true to reality. Morality can be refined by science and reason. An 'ought' is what drives us to an 'is'. Science has a monopoly on ethics. 8-)

Precisely. The purpose of Morals is to achieve coexistence. Masturbating or having pre-marital sex in the comfort of your own home doesn't harm anyone else's coexistence(well,except for maybe bigoted religious extremist,but I really don't give a shit about them and neither should anyone else...)

just curious,but...did you officially marry your wife? or did you just decide to cohabit?

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Summerlander
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby Summerlander » 01 Apr 2018 02:54

We had our first child fourteen years ago but only got married seven years ago---which means that our kids got to witness and enjoy the ceremony and party. We made it official at the registry office---secular style, no church or religious bull involved.

The 'big day' was merely a symbol of our love and commitment to the relationship; in other words, it was meaningful to both of us, not because it's an old tradition mandated by the creator of the universe. :mrgreen:

You've just reminded me of something that happened at work two days ago. Me and my colleagues were bailing boxes in the warehouse and I was talking to Monika, a white Hungarian woman, about our kids. I then asked her if she was married to her partner and she said 'yes'. Amir, a young Pakistani, overheard the conversation and decided to get involved:

Amir: [to me] How can you ask her if she's married when she's already told you she's got kids?

Me: What are you talking about, Amir? I had kids way before I got married.

Amir: What?!

Monika: [to Amir] Yeah, a lot of people do that, it doesn't matter.

Amir: That's bad. It's against my religion. I'm a Muslim. You can't have sex before marriage.

At this point, I was laughing in my head. Not at Amir's ignorance, but at the fact that he inadvertently disclosed his virginity. :mrgreen:

Monika: But that's religion. It depends on what you believe in. I was raised a Christian but I don't follow my parents' religion, and the belief in the wickedness of premarital sex as a tenet is exactly the same.

Me: I think it's a beautiful thing to have your kids at your wedding. You share the experience with them apart from all the guests.

In my head: Amir, your religion is largely a plagiarism of Judeo-Christian values. :mrgreen:

Amir: Nah man, I believe in God, it's how I was raised.

Me: I was raised believing in God, too. But I grew out of it. I follow science and reason, hence why I don't believe in God.

Amir: So you believe in the Big Bang, then?

Me: Well, there is evidence for it---not sure it was the very beginning of everything but it surely appears to have given birth to our universe.

Matthew, an atheist, walks in.

Me: What about you, Matthew? What do you believe in?

Matthew: [facetiously] I believe I'm God. I created you, you, you and you.

The last person Matthew pointed at is Maria, another Hungarian who also happened to eavesdrop on our conversation; she starts laughing at him.

Me: [to Amir] Oooh ... it could be true! You should be worshipping him on faith, no evidence required!

Matthew is the last person you'd think of as a possible theophany, but still ... :twisted:

Amir: I know he's joking.

Matthew: [to Amir] Your better worship me, boy, or I will smite you with my brolly!

We all start laughing apart from Amir. :D

Religion is divisive. It tends to turn people into holier-than-thou pricks. It breeds intolerance of other people's beliefs or world views. Religion invents taboos where none are applicable. Its supposedly divine and ethical commandments are often amoral and I believe stupidity, of any kind, should be exposed and ridiculed---especially when the parties of God attempt to make you feel inadequate or inappropriate. 8-)
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby RedKryptonite » 01 Apr 2018 09:36

@Summerlander
That's awesome man. Actually,this is how I'd like to go about it too. I'd only marry if I've been together with an SO for a significant amount of time(at least more than 7 years),and I would only like to emulate the wedding party as a symbol of our love,without the legal bind nor the religion mumbo jumbo that often go along with it.

Well...that's IF I ever gain the desire to do so. As I've explained before,my sexuality is rather...unusual. and because I don't plan to have kids,I wouldn't want to be monogamous either(is it possible to raise kids healthily under a poly-LTR structure?). I'd be in an LTR/marriage under a poly structure.

Sigh,there are days when I wish was a more "normal" person. I'm actually a naturally good-looking guy,despite the fact that I'm not in the best of shape(I've already had multiple girls in college get a crush on me,and one experienced where a girl became unhealthily obsessed with me. Back in my younger years,I always assumed I was automatically unattractive because of my weight. It was quite a shock to discover in college that this isn't the case.)but a lot of the benefit of natural good looks goes down the toilet if you're not into conventional sex. Oh well,I guess its still beneficial. Strangers treat me well and often automatically assume good things about me. (The Halo effect). 8-)

I honestly suspect my looks might have played a part as to why I've gotten away with such poor study/work ethic in college,many teachers are female or even gay men. I'm definitely not complaining about it though since I fucking hate being forced to study all this crap. :D

I hope I didn't sound conceited there,but it an honest observation.

Oh yeah,getting back to the stupidity of the religious,take a look at this:
https://ph.news.yahoo.com/no-more-pain-philippine-devotee-nailed-cross-32nd-111146442.html

Oh god... :roll:

lucidé
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby lucidé » 01 Apr 2018 16:33

There’s a fight in Utah going on about morality and it has gotten to the point of violence. I even ditched town to get away from it.

I’ve been questioned in a few ways on why I am unable to “love” others. It’s because chemically, I am unable to. You cannot get a magnet to pull if it has no magnetism to begin with. Makes me seem a bit different, because pictures of muscular guys do nothing. I don’t like physically touched by the opposite gender (unless I am training to fight), but only because I was physically assaulted too often by bullies.

It might be a good time to bring up a hot internet subject that happened 2 weeks ago. There was a science teacher who fed a dying puppy to a snapping turtle. Science students enjoyed the feeding and said it taught them the harshness of real life. Religious students put out a huge complaint saying it was cruel to the dog. One problem I have is most religions have a fetish with certain animals (cats, dogs, cows), but don’t care about the others. They could have fed it a live mouse, and only PETA reps would have complained (most are all kill shelters). The problem wasn’t with the feeding in the end, but with the fact the teacher brought an invasive animal into that US state, so they had to kill it. Now there is a huge online war between the religious and non religious about the morality of what that teacher did. In my eyes, he probably should have euthanazed that puppy shortly before feeding it to the turtle. Once it’s dead, doesn’t matter how the body is disposed.
An example of lucid dreaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7ps_VSPkg (1:46 Is that me or is this me? "Am I still dreaming?") Simpsons example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X1n5Yny3g

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Summerlander
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby Summerlander » 01 Apr 2018 19:12

Not conceited at all, Red. I think you're trying to stay true to your nature. That's admirable. There are many like you who conceal their urges out of shame and feign disgust when they meet their similitudes. Hopefully you'll meet someone compatible and who isn't afraid of honest expression. :-)

Right, time to pick apart religious fanatics. Enaje is probably right when he says he reckons his strong Catholic faith helped him avoid pain during his crucifixion, but not in the way he thinks. I'm willing to bet that the phenomenon is attributable to a surge of adrenaline which sources something akin to the placebo effect---in other words, the lack of pain can be explained scientifically. I very much doubt that God is telling Enaje He's pleased with his self-sacrifice.

I'm starting to really abhor this idea of absolution through pain and sacrifice. It's so ancient and abjectly sadomasochistic! According to this lunacy, the self-abasement propitiates their sadistic lord---who could turn them into archangels in the blink of an eye if He wanted to, by the way---to the point where He removes the ills He bestowed upon His creation in the first place. Give me a break! :roll:

Why can't these people see through these absurdities like we do?
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby RedKryptonite » 02 Apr 2018 07:01

lucidé wrote:One problem I have is most religions have a fetish with certain animals (cats, dogs, cows), but don’t care about the others. They could have fed it a live mouse, and only PETA reps would have complained (most are all kill shelters). The problem wasn’t with the feeding in the end, but with the fact the teacher brought an invasive animal into that US state, so they had to kill it. Now there is a huge online war between the religious and non religious about the morality of what that teacher did. In my eyes, he probably should have euthanazed that puppy shortly before feeding it to the turtle. Once it’s dead, doesn’t matter how the body is disposed.

Indeed. The typical person only cares about animal cruelty if they find the animal cute/adorable,which is a sad thing because all sentient beings experience pain and suffering. That even extends to how humans treat other human beings. I remember seeing an experiment on youtube of 2 people asking for help/money. One was a handsome and muscular man dressed to convey that he's rich and high status,the other was an unattractive skinny guy dressed to convey that he's poor. People were actually more willing to help out the guy who likely doesn't need it all that much while the other was dismissed,sometimes even outright disrespected. Goes to show how looks/beauty really influences society. (To be fair,I can't say I'm all that better. if guy #2 approached me out of nowhere,I'd probably be more cautious of getting mugged than if it was guy #1.)

Anyway,yeah. Feeding the puppy alive was just plain unnecessary cruelty. I agree with you there.

@Summerlander
Why can't these people see through these absurdities like we do?

That's brainwashing for you,both by parents and society. We can only be thankful that Atheists such as darkmatter,theramintrees,qualiasoup,etc. are working their way to de-brainwash the world.

Have you ever seen "Jesus Camp?" Its a perfect example of religious nutcases brainwashing children.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QajIuDbqjdY
(there are other parts,youtube should automatically link to them)

I linked to this guy's rant/critique of video rather than Jesus Camp itself because its a lot more entertaining that way. A long time ago I was a big fan of this guy(bigal2k6),he was one of my earliest role models. I've long grown out of him by now,but this rant of his is universally considered by his fans(and even himself)to be the best rant video he ever made. hope you enjoy. :D

As for Enaje himself,you're absolutely right. Even Martial artists experience what he is saying. Muay Thai fighters for example have very tough shins/legs. Its just the body toughening up as a result of training,not some all powerful diety bestowing you with magical powers. :roll:

Furthermore...there are anecdotal account of someone being able to get through surgery without anesthesia thanks to hypnotism. The mind can be quite powerful. Nothing to do with the imaginary man in the sky. :lol:

Edit: Wait,its not just anecdotal accounts. You can look them up yourself if you wish,but there's studies and even video evidence for it,here's one sample:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/hypnosis-replaces-anesthetic-in-brain-surgery-and-theres-video/

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Summerlander
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby Summerlander » 02 Apr 2018 22:50

Even atheists can be fatuous sometimes. :|

I came across the following post on Facebook:

'Truth, I'm an ATHIEST [sic] and even I admit this: "[Atheists constitute the vast majority of] people who constantly force their religious beliefs down my throat." '

~Brian Ennis; 01/04/2018

[According to suspect statistics presented in pie chart format on the Christopher Hitchens Appreciation Society.]

This orymoron is wrong on so many levels. :x

The reality becomes clear when one thinks about who knocks on the door to peddle scripture and faith and who occasionally speaks out against stupidity and in what context. :roll:

But we need not even go further than the semantics about the fatuous notion of 'fundamental atheism'. For starters, atheism is not a religion, it is merely an empirically justified stance of disbelief. If it were true that unbelievers constitute the majority of people who 'proselytise', then we must live in a better world already and I missed it because I want to hear from these people keen on spreading facts. :P

Have certain nations on the Eastern side of our planet all of a sudden cease to demonise, ostracise and condemn atheism? Has Western civilisation's USA, ostensibly the 'greatest' country on Earth, elected a new POTUS who publicly declared his atheism without the repercussions of career suicide?

What have I missed, Pangloss? :D

I guess this fatuity shouldn't surprise us coming from an atheist who can't even spell the very thing he proclaims to be. :mrgreen:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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RedKryptonite
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby RedKryptonite » 03 Apr 2018 12:42

Indeed,this hasn't been true at all in my experience. If anything,we Atheists in real life do our best to keep our thoughts to ourselves for fear of being judged by society. Religious have resorted to violence against other and ostracize family members due to differences in beliefs. I don't see Atheists doing that. Some Atheists do act arrogant and intellectually look down on others,but that's the worst I've seen. It doesn't even compare to what religious extremists do in the name of their spaghetti monster.

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Summerlander
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Re: Science and Morality

Postby Summerlander » 04 Apr 2018 05:03

I couldn't agree more. I will always adhere to the main ideals of the Enlightenment: science, reason, humanism and progress.

We have nothing to fear from science because what is to be discovered by human beings will be discovered. We may fear and question certain anthropic ideas that might produce destructive technology which should never find itself in the wrong hands. But that's the major extent about which we should worry, and our survival will be made easier without religious eschatology.

It is pernicious for our species to have so many of us eager to witness the promised apocalypse so ubiquitously believed to herald a new world. The belief in the afterlife itself can be demonstrated to have a negative impact. It makes us value the hypothetical 'next life' more than this one, which, needless to say, is the only one we can be sure of. :|

New evidence emerged showing that Jesus Christ never existed. His whole life was a complete Roman fabrication devised by government aristocrats to control the common people and prevent Jewish insurrection at the time. (Check out Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill who will soon publicly present his thesis in London.)

There are roughly one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe. To think that we are the only intelligent species in our cosmic corner seems extremely improbable---I don't think we're that special!

I find the existence of aliens more believable than stories about gods and messiahs. :ugeek:
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava


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