One way out communication while LDing.

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One way out communication while LDing.

Postby LukeSosa » 04 Jan 2013 19:10

First of all, this is a repost from dark_grimmjow on the Dreamviews forum and it is so interesting that I had to share it. Please take a look a it. It's a very interesting idea about controlling the body while lucid dreaming, even to express full words and ideas asleep, some sort of alphabet based on breathing patterns, similar to morse codes. Here is the full thing:

There is an experiment that i've been wanting to try, but i don't get ld's frequently enough to try yet. I've been wanting to test whether or not a person can directly control the physical body's breathing while in an ld. I know that eye movement can be controlled, because i'm pretty sure that stephen laberge proved it. So i was wondering if breathing could be controlled also.

The experiment:
1. Make up a pattern of breathes that is easily memorable and short. Maybe it could be a part of the rhythm to your favorite song.
2. Set up a way to audibly (even better with video) record yourself while you sleep.
3. Get into an ld and do the breathing pattern. Try to do it 2 or 3 times so that in the recording it is easily discerned. But you have to be careful, because i think a dramatic change in breathing could potentially wake you up.
4. Listen to the recording and search for the breathing pattern. If you find it, then hypothesis proved! If you don't find it, try the experiment a few more times.

Anybody have some feedback?

I'm not sure if there are really any practical uses for the experiment . I know that i want to see what happens with the experiment out of sheer curiosity. I know that dreams can effect your breathing (e.x. nightmare = excessive breathing, maybe feeling of being out of breath). I think that this would prove that even while dreaming you can still have some control over your physical body. This experiment would add one more thing to the small list of bodily things you can control while in a dream: eye movement and breathing (granted that the experiment works). I don't think anything else can be controlled since sp cuts off communication with the rest of the body.

Another thing that this could potentially be used for is a signal from the dream world to real life. If someone were to be watching you while you sleep and you give this breathing pattern (signal); it could be like you were saying, "Hey! I'm lucid dreaming right now!" This could be used as a method to determine almost the exact moment you become lucid. If you become lucid, you could immediately give the signal, and someone watching you or the device that is recording the experiment could determine when you became lucid. Maybe this could even determine whether dream time is real time. Let's say you have a set breathing pattern with a set speed at which it is performed. When you get into an ld and perform the breathing pattern at that set speed, you could then check the recording to see if the speed is consistent. If the breathing pattern is slower in the recording than what was performed in the dream, then perhaps the dream time was moving faster than real life time, or just the opposite could be true. I know there is a lot of room for underlying variables that could throw off the dream time part of the experiment, but there could be potential there. One problem could be that each individual dream moves at its own rate; one dream could progress faster or slower than the next dream.

I know that at the beginning of the post I said that i couldn't think of any practical applications for the experiment, but they've been coming to me as i've been typing this post. This next one is my favorite application out of all of them and this just popped into my head. What if you could use your breathes as morse code? I know that it would be a one-way communication, because nobody could have a conversation with you in the real world while you were dreaming, but this could be a means by which someone could send a message from the dream world to the real world. Maybe this could be used as a way to describe what your dream is like as it is happening. One problem i see with this is that morse code my tend to be too lengthy. This could result in you having an ld in which you are doing nothing but giving strange breathe patterns while you are lucid. So maybe there could be some set breathing patterns that are both short and distinguishable that could be used as a more effect way of communication than morse code. Maybe for example 2 short exhales could represent "no" and 3 short exhales could represent "yes". I know that saying yes or no implies that you are answering a question and to answer a question, someone has to ask you a question (you might be thinking, that's not possible because i'm dreaming), but you could go into a dream with a question already set beforehand so that no two-way communication would be required. Perhaps you could make a language that was based purely on breathing patterns, where 3 or 4 breathes don't represent just one letter like in morse code but words instead. The only downside would be that trying to create a breathing language would be very complex and it would be a lot of memorization for a person to go though. Yeah, i know a breathing language sounds kind of far fetched, but i just had to throw it out there.

I'm sure there could be more applications for this, but i think one big hurdle to overcome would be that most of time, a dramatic change in breathing can wake you up. So if you are spending a lot of time in an ld making strange breathing patterns, then your chances of waking up could increase exponentially. One possible solution for this is for someone to just practice doing the breathing patterns in an ld. I think that maybe with practice; a person could train themselves to stay in an ld longer, even though they are breathing erratically.

Sorry for rambling. I know that there are probably all kinds of things that need to be tweaked in the above paragraphs, but please let me know what you think. I think that this has a lot of potential. Please, feedback anybody?

Ok, since you can control your physical body's breathing through an ld, what does everybody think about using breathing as a means of a signal or maybe one-way communication?

Originally Posted by Vidule
What, like morse code? Short pants and long inhales/exhales for dots and dashes?
Yep, that's the general idea. The only problem is it would take a lot of breathes to make one word, so the process would have to be refined a little bit. One approach could be use the type of grammar that most people use in texting or instant messaging. Like if you wanted to say the word "weight" or "wait" you could just use the "breathing code" to say "w8t". There would have to be patterns to represent the numbers, but in the long run, it could save a lot of breath and time. Another way to streamline the process, like i mentioned in my earlier post; someone could create patterns to represent entire words rather than individual characters.

Edit: Another thing i forgot to mention is that with morse code, you only have a beep. With a beep there can only be 2 variations, a short and a long beep. So that means you only have to symbols with which to represent the 26 in the alphabet, and if you include only the necessary numbers 0-9, that would add up to 36 symbols being represented by combinations of only 2 symbols. The good thing with the "breathing code" is that you have 4 symbols that you can use instead of only 2. You could have both long and short exhales and long and short inhales. That way the combinations could be made more compact, allowing the conservation of breath and time.

What if you wrote a list of yes or no questions about the lucid dream and you answer it by deep breathing once for "yes" and pause for a moment for the next question and if it is a "no", you breath deeply twice.

What kinds of questions? Not sure, like maybe "Does the dream take place at your house" and you answer.

The trick would be that you would have to really memorize the questions in order and very thoroughly so that your subconscious doesn't mess it up.

Okay wait I just thought of this but I'm not sure where you would get the technology, what if you found a way for an observer to ask questions via microphone to a device that can be hooked up with ear/head phones. Since it is possible to hear the external envioronment, I can see this being a possibility but you would have to find your volume. Something not too loud or to quiet so you can hear it without waking up. But I don't know what kind of device would link a microphone and earphones so I don't know.

So like the observer can ask yes/no questions, and you respond with the breathing.

Sorry for the wall Just some ideas of mine.

This is it, very interesting, let me know what you think.

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Re: One way out communication while LDing.

Postby torakrubik » 05 Jan 2013 01:06

I won't do a full analysis on this post...however I will throw some things out there that spring to my mind.

Obviously this is a thoroughly thought out idea. It does however heavily rely on the fact that breathing can be controlled from a lucid dream. Correct me if i'm wrong, but to my knowledge this is unproven, and could crush this idea before it takes off.

Another thing that could be a hindrance is all the memorization. It may be wise to study which areas of the brain are active enough in a lucid dream to actually remember questions to answer, let alone an entire language.

Just some of my thoughts on the matter.
Dreaming is my drug

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Re: One way out communication while LDing.

Postby HAGART » 05 Jan 2013 06:12

I only read half the post because I have a short attention span.....
But I think it is a great experiment.

torakrubik wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong, but to my knowledge this is unproven, and could crush this idea before it takes off.
More reason to try it. Even if an experiment fails, it is still worth while.

One thing I have noticed about lucid dreams is that I am not conscious of my body's breathing. But then again, the same can be said about 99% of my waking day. I am only now thinking about it because it is on my mind and I bet it is the same for anybody reading this. As soon as it is mentioned and you start thinking about it, now you realize, "Hey! I was breathing all day, but never gave it a moment's thought".

But if you do concentrate on it in a lucid dream, I feel it may actually be possible.
It's hard to prove with a video camera though and I don't know of anybody that would want to watch me sleep all night and await coded breathing patterns! But I think the idea is sound and worth experimenting somehow.
If we all lucid dreamed this world would be a better place.

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Re: One way out communication while LDing.

Postby LukeSosa » 07 Jan 2013 12:55

I know the idea is hard, first of all to create the language, then to remember it, etc. But, I think once you memorize the language or at least signals to tell you are lucid dreaming, the experiment is already done, completed and proved; maybe when you're lucid dreaming, you can force yourself to remember it (because you can do anything in a dream?, and yes this may be dangerous for the experiment due to the possibility of false memories generation) all and be able to send the signals to the waking world.

You must know I'm just posting some ideas, I'm actually very new to Lucid Dreamin, today I had my second induced LD.

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Re: One way out communication while LDing.

Postby Summerlander » 08 Jan 2013 01:52

This breathing business and morse code has already been done by Stephen LaBerge et al. Both eye movements and breathing are reliable for communication. Other dream body movements would be less reliable as they would only produce tenuous muscle twitching and you would need proper equipment to measure them.

For more:

On dream time... it isn't so different from real time when you are lucid dreaming. But at the same time, this is a grey area because the perception of time hinges on the level of consciousness.
"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

- Padmasambhava

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Re: One way out communication while LDing.

Postby LukeSosa » 09 Jan 2013 14:04

Thanks dude, I knew about Stephen LaBerge's experiment of the eyes, and I'll check that link.

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